BSL-23 Robyn Harris

Senedd Cymru | Welsh Parliament

Bil Aelod Arfaethedig – Mark Isherwood AS | Proposed Member Bill - Mark Isherwood MS

Datblygu'r Bil Iaith Arwyddion Prydain (BSL) (Cymru) | Development of the British Sign Language (BSL) (Wales) Bill

Ymateb gan: Robyn Harris | Evidence from: Robyn Harris

The need for legislation

The British Sign Language Act 2022 requires the UK Government to issue guidance about the promotion and facilitation of the use of British Sign Language (BSL). This however only applies in England and not to the Welsh Government or public bodies in Wales such as councils or the NHS. The British Sign Language (BSL) (Wales) Bill aims to place equivalent specific duties on the Welsh Government and public bodies in Wales.

Question 1: Do you think there is a need for this legislation? Please provide reasons for your answer.

Definitely. Sadly without legislation people and services are often ignorant of the experience of Deaf, sign language using individuals and the inequalities and barriers they encounter on a daily basis. Having legislation will impose duties which will bring about change and hopefully increase awareness ensuring greater equality and inclusion for those who use a visual language as their first or preferred means of communication.

Question 2: Do you agree or disagree with the goals that the Bill seeks to achieve? Please provide reasons for your answer.

I agree with the goals though time will tell if these are sufficient to achieve equity or more needs to be done. Sadly legislation, and sets of goals, can become merely checklists which might look good on paper, and in reporting, but do not effect the desired changes for the community they were designed to support. I would very much like the reporting to be qualitative as well as quantitative and for Deaf sign language users to be involved at every stage going forward to ensure their views are embedded within any changes made.

British Sign Language

Question 3: Do you agree that the Bill should include proposals to promote and facilitate the use of BSL and its tactile forms?

Yes

Question 4: Do you agree that the Bill should support the various Welsh regional dialects of BSL?

Yes

Question 5: Do you think that the term ‘BSL users’ should be replaced with ‘BSL signers’, recognising that BSL is a language which includes both deaf and hearing signers? Please provide reasons for your answer.

Yes.

Sign language is a rich, expressive, beautiful language and I believe its regional variations should be valued and respected. Those who use a tactile form of this language are often additionally disadvantaged and so must be included in this new Bill to ensure their needs are not sidelined or forgotten. As was stated in the supporting information, roughly 90% of Deaf children are born into hearing families and so it's important to ensure this Bill considers the whole family unit, both hearing and Deaf. In addition there are others who are hearing, but use sign language, including some people with aphasia and my own profession - sign language interpreters.

Question 6: Do you think that the term ‘deaf BSL signers’ can be used when referring to BSL users/signers who are medically or audiologically deaf? Please provide reasons for your answer.

Don't know.

I am not Deaf myself so don't feel I can answer this question in this instance. I think it is one which must be answered by individuals as to how they wish to be described or, perhaps, if there is consensus, by the community as a whole. That said, as you'll see above, I have used it , because I find it can, at times, be a useful distinction.

Deaf Communities

Question 7: Do you agree or disagree that deaf communities:

a) currently have a voice in the design and delivery of the public services that they use? Please tick the answer that most applies and provide any comments.

Strongly disagree.

In my work as a sign language interpreter, time and again I have seen Deaf people and sign language being sidelined, ignored or blatantly pushed aside. Excuses are given - there's not enough money; the numbers are too low to warrant setting a budget - but Deaf people are suffering as a result. Their education, health and access to services is at an unacceptable level and it's costing the economy in terms of poor mental health, sickness and un- or underemployment. This needs to change.

b) should have a formalised voice in the design and delivery of the public services that they use, especially ones targeted at deaf people. Please tick the answer that most applies and provide any comments.

Strongly agree.

Sadly, if Deaf 'voices' are not included in a formal manner they are often glossed over. There is much talk these days of including the views of those with 'lived experience' but often the Deaf voice goes unheard because the systems for sharing experiences are not accessible to those who use sign language. It's also important to ensure views are sought, considered and actioned at every level, from proposal to design, implementation and monitoring / reviewing, not merely as a tokenistic, optional 'add-on'.

Question 8: Are there any specific communication methods used by deaf people that you would like the Bill to reference/include?

Again I think this is one best answered by the sign language using community themselves, but I feel it's important to recognise that there are sign language using individuals in Wales who use particular varieties / dialects of the language such as GSV (Gay Sign Variation); or who have experienced language delay, and the developmental consequences of this, due to their education; or who have moved to this country and are currently using a different sign language - eg Ukranian or Russian.

In terms of access to services it would be good to acknowledge the need for visual communication such as text messaging, emails and video calls, while also realising that Deaf people's access to English might be limited.

It would also be good to make it clear that Makaton is not a language! Sadly it is often the basis for resources offered to children (eg Mr Tumble, signed songs and Baby Sign). Makaton is for those who are unable, due to complex learning difficulties, to master a full language. It should not be offered as a substitute for sign language. It is not an easier form of BSL for English speakers to use.

Sign Supported English is also not BSL. BSL is a language in its own right and cannot be used simultaneously with English. BSL grammar and lexical order are actually more similar to Welsh and we would never advocate simply submitting Welsh words in an English sentence.

Barriers that exist for deaf people

Question 9: What do you believe are the main barriers that currently exist for deaf people and/or their families in the following areas. Please tick all that apply and provide information/examples on each area:

Education; Health; Social Care; Transport; Other Public Services used by deaf people and their families; Workplace; Phone based services, Internet resources, any written resources, mental health services and resources.

From what I've seen, Deaf sign language using people are disadvantaged in every situation, except those which are Deaf-led. Our world is so hearing-centric. Many alarms and alerts are still solely (or at least by default) sound based. Access to many services still requires people to be able to talk on the phone. If alternatives exist, they are usually English based (text messaging, emails, websites, leaflets, etc). Even providing interpreters in order to 'make a service accessible' is still working from a hearing/spoken language centric view of the world. It is always the Deaf sign language using person who is expected to adapt and navigate this world, much of which they don't have access to. If the situation were reversed, hearing people would at least, in time, be able to learn sign language and become familiar with Deaf culture and ways of being, but for Deaf people they will never be able to hear auditory signals like a hearing person (hearing aids and cochlear implants are not an equivalent - they don't restore hearing in the way glasses restore sight) and even if a Deaf person masters English vocabulary and grammar, it will never be the same as being a native user as written English is still based on an awareness of how it sounds when spoken.

Establishing a BSL Commissioner for Wales

The Bill proposes to establish a BSL Commissioner who would promote and facilitate the use of BSL, and would have the same powers as other minority language Commissioners such as in the Welsh Language (Wales) Measure 2011.

Question 10: Do you agree or disagree with the proposal to establish a BSL Commissioner for Wales, and, do you have any different suggestions or alternatives? Please provide reasons for your answer.

Yes

Question 11: The proposed remit of the Commissioner would be to:

§ formulate BSL standards;

§ establish a BSL Advisory Panel;

§ produce reports every 5 years in BSL, Welsh and English on the position of BSL in that period;

§ provide guidance and a process for public bodies to promote and facilitate BSL in their respective domains;

§ establish a procedure for the investigation of complaints.

Do you agree with the proposed remit of the Commissioner, and are there any other provisions you would like to include in the Commissioner’s remit? Please provide reasons for your answer.

Yes I agree with this remit. I can't currently think of any further provisions to add. Again, I think the Deaf sign language community is in the best position to comment on this.

I believe the Commissioner should themselves be a Deaf, fluent sign language user.

Question 12: Do you agree that the BSL Commissioner and the BSL Advisory Panel members should be fluent users/signers?

Yes

Question 13: Do you think that the proposed BSL Commissioner and Advisory Panel should prioritise the following. Please tick all that apply and provide reasons for your answer.

Enabling deaf users/signers to lead the development of policies and implementation of services for BSL users/signers; Early years language support for deaf children and their families; Improving BSL provision in education; Access to interpreters in public services.

I believe all of these are important. I think they are interconnected and interdependent.

Question 14: Do you agree or disagree with the proposal to place a duty on the Welsh Government to prepare and publish an annual BSL report? Please provide reasons for your answer.